byeusa
07-10 11:57 PM
These USINPAC folks are shameless creatures who will take credit for the sun shining tomorrow morning. Lets send this guy Sanjay Puri, Robinder Sachdev and his fraudsters team a dictionary so that he knows how to spell IMMIGRATION correctly even if he has some malicious thoughts and actions in his mind. All they are good at is to do photo oppotunities and do these frauds where they claim to have worked or be working on an issue. I can also do the fund raisers and get photos taken. But there is where it stops with USINPAC. The politicians walk away with the money and turn their back on them and these guys start looking for the next politician to do a fund raiser for and get photo opportunity. How much more foolish can this get??
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lazycis
12-11 02:57 PM
Send email to who ? Can you pls describe in detail what email they need to send and what reason they need to put in. My local office always says NSC is processing July cases so you should have it soon, but that "soon" has never happened. It is 160+ days since I applied.
If you haven't tried it yet, try to follow the procedure I described on the 1st page
http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showpost.php?p=199646&postcount=3
The only reason you need is that yor EAD app is pending more than 90 days. Ask for a receipt that they followed procedures outlined in memo. They have to contact service center where your I-765 is pending and request expedite processing. You can also print federal regulations
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/26mar20071500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/janqtr/pdf/8cfr274a.13.pdf
Section 274a.13(d) sets that 90 days deadline.
If you haven't tried it yet, try to follow the procedure I described on the 1st page
http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showpost.php?p=199646&postcount=3
The only reason you need is that yor EAD app is pending more than 90 days. Ask for a receipt that they followed procedures outlined in memo. They have to contact service center where your I-765 is pending and request expedite processing. You can also print federal regulations
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/26mar20071500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/janqtr/pdf/8cfr274a.13.pdf
Section 274a.13(d) sets that 90 days deadline.
desi3933
06-30 02:05 PM
To so called "freedom figher"
Court cases are filed with legal basis. Not on emotional outburst.
I suggest that you spend your $100 to get an advice from lawyer on your "points" including the meaning for "We the People".
.
Thanks for red, guys.
You are not even ready to take advice from an attorney for your "great" idea, and somehow believes that lawsuit is an easy game.
Have you have been to courthouse? Been a part of civil lawsuit? I have and I had guts to be pro-se (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_pro).
Have a good day!
Court cases are filed with legal basis. Not on emotional outburst.
I suggest that you spend your $100 to get an advice from lawyer on your "points" including the meaning for "We the People".
.
Thanks for red, guys.
You are not even ready to take advice from an attorney for your "great" idea, and somehow believes that lawsuit is an easy game.
Have you have been to courthouse? Been a part of civil lawsuit? I have and I had guts to be pro-se (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_pro).
Have a good day!
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indiandude
10-16 06:10 PM
Hi All,
My son was born last month and applied for US passport. Once I get the passport I am planning to apply for PIO card in Texas. Can you please let me know if I need to send my son's original passport and the processing time. Can you please also let me know if anyone recently applied?
Thanks
My son was born last month and applied for US passport. Once I get the passport I am planning to apply for PIO card in Texas. Can you please let me know if I need to send my son's original passport and the processing time. Can you please also let me know if anyone recently applied?
Thanks
more...
makemygc
07-06 10:56 AM
It doesn't seem to be fair to people filing after July 2nd. It's causing backfire...
You are not reading it correctly. Lawsuit is not limited to July 2nd filers. That is the reason why attorney's are encouraging to file even now.
On your backfire note, you gotta read Pappu and logiclife postings about some people being happy about the July bulletin fiasco. Read it over the weekend. Those are great postings.
You are not reading it correctly. Lawsuit is not limited to July 2nd filers. That is the reason why attorney's are encouraging to file even now.
On your backfire note, you gotta read Pappu and logiclife postings about some people being happy about the July bulletin fiasco. Read it over the weekend. Those are great postings.
tiinap
09-25 06:54 PM
I support this idea of a Silicon Valley rally. I also think that for our next rally we first need need some new concept or central idea that will make us heard loud and clear and get even more national attention. I guess we all agree that the next rally shouldn't be simply a repeat of DC in a different location, but in some way take things to the next level.
Our ranks are much smaller than the 12 million illegal immigrants, so we cannot get noticed based on sheer numbers alone. To get attention we need original & effective ideas. Like the flower campaign.
One idea that we could use in our next rally is to ask each participant to come with a sign that reads "Waiting since (year)" where the date is when you first came to the US as a student or H1 or J1. In my case that's 1999 and I'm not even able to get in line for a green card.
Our ranks are much smaller than the 12 million illegal immigrants, so we cannot get noticed based on sheer numbers alone. To get attention we need original & effective ideas. Like the flower campaign.
One idea that we could use in our next rally is to ask each participant to come with a sign that reads "Waiting since (year)" where the date is when you first came to the US as a student or H1 or J1. In my case that's 1999 and I'm not even able to get in line for a green card.
more...
maximus777
09-15 01:59 PM
You cannot keep GC out of equation when GC/non-GC decides your ability to get unemployment benefits, choice of jobs and many more aspects of your life.
If you leave the country, you lose the equity on the house. I don't know when you bought
the house. In the post credit bubble period, the lender will make sure you have enough equity that they are secure and you have skin in the game.
Bought my home in early 2008 on 100% financing (yeah, they had these crazy schemes back then!) before the economy tanked. So I havent put down any money. Even the closing costs were paid by the seller. For me its not an investment, but a place to live. So I am not worried about the equity. The home isnt a McMansion and the mortgage payment is manageable. When tax savings at year end are considered, it almost puts me on par with renting.
On the other hand, I dont put GC on a pedestal. I bought my home even before I had started GC process. To me it is not a life changing event like the day I was born or my wedding day or the birth day of my kid. Its something good to have for obvious benefits, but I am not holding my breath until I get it. Once again, I reiter that factoring GC into your decisions is a personal choice, and I dont do it. I am not banking on unemployment benefits or any other govt dole. Like I said, if anything were to go wrong and I had to leave the country for good, my lender will be the one taking the hit. This might not be the case in your situation and I can understand why GC would be so important then.
If you leave the country, you lose the equity on the house. I don't know when you bought
the house. In the post credit bubble period, the lender will make sure you have enough equity that they are secure and you have skin in the game.
Bought my home in early 2008 on 100% financing (yeah, they had these crazy schemes back then!) before the economy tanked. So I havent put down any money. Even the closing costs were paid by the seller. For me its not an investment, but a place to live. So I am not worried about the equity. The home isnt a McMansion and the mortgage payment is manageable. When tax savings at year end are considered, it almost puts me on par with renting.
On the other hand, I dont put GC on a pedestal. I bought my home even before I had started GC process. To me it is not a life changing event like the day I was born or my wedding day or the birth day of my kid. Its something good to have for obvious benefits, but I am not holding my breath until I get it. Once again, I reiter that factoring GC into your decisions is a personal choice, and I dont do it. I am not banking on unemployment benefits or any other govt dole. Like I said, if anything were to go wrong and I had to leave the country for good, my lender will be the one taking the hit. This might not be the case in your situation and I can understand why GC would be so important then.
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delhirocks
06-28 01:56 PM
This is wrong. EAD can be issued when both of the following conditions MUST meet:
I140 has been approved
I485 application is 180 days old
Thats incorrect, You will still get your EAD if I-140 is pending. But, in futiure if your I-140 is say rejected, you will be instantly out of status (If you are on EAD).
I will post the supporting documentation shortly
I140 has been approved
I485 application is 180 days old
Thats incorrect, You will still get your EAD if I-140 is pending. But, in futiure if your I-140 is say rejected, you will be instantly out of status (If you are on EAD).
I will post the supporting documentation shortly
more...
nrk
08-11 08:39 AM
Enjoy the freedom
Thanks Nrk.. infact we got our approval email this morning. We had two sets of I-485 applications..my wife's date of Oct 2005 was earlier which got approved today. Thanks again.
Thanks Nrk.. infact we got our approval email this morning. We had two sets of I-485 applications..my wife's date of Oct 2005 was earlier which got approved today. Thanks again.
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DDLMODES
07-06 10:10 AM
Hey guys,
I have a question to all of you...
AILA prepares the lawsuit and some (probably most) of the lawyers are supporting that.
For several days I keep hearing that WHEN you file (in July) is not important and I am wondering how that could be true...
I understand that the people who filed on July 2nd are beneficiaries of this but in my mind, everybody who files after falls under a different category because technically they would file after the revised bulletin was announced therefore have no argument. I understand that everybody else prepared (legal fees, medical exam and so on) and they are affected even if they didn't file but I am wondering how that can be justification enough after the dates (retrogression) were announced.
I am trying to understand why they say that it does not matter when you file. They need more people to back this up or is just so they can justify billing you for their work...
Is just scary, how many people play with our hopes and I need to understand if this is just to serve somebody's interests or it is what it is .
Please post your 2 cents ...
Thanks !
I have a question to all of you...
AILA prepares the lawsuit and some (probably most) of the lawyers are supporting that.
For several days I keep hearing that WHEN you file (in July) is not important and I am wondering how that could be true...
I understand that the people who filed on July 2nd are beneficiaries of this but in my mind, everybody who files after falls under a different category because technically they would file after the revised bulletin was announced therefore have no argument. I understand that everybody else prepared (legal fees, medical exam and so on) and they are affected even if they didn't file but I am wondering how that can be justification enough after the dates (retrogression) were announced.
I am trying to understand why they say that it does not matter when you file. They need more people to back this up or is just so they can justify billing you for their work...
Is just scary, how many people play with our hopes and I need to understand if this is just to serve somebody's interests or it is what it is .
Please post your 2 cents ...
Thanks !
more...
ivdude
10-02 04:28 PM
looivy,
I agree we should write to Indian Ambassador about this idiotic policy, also we should send out to media.
Thanks for the template
I agree we should write to Indian Ambassador about this idiotic policy, also we should send out to media.
Thanks for the template
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03-21 10:47 PM
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AirWaterandGC
05-14 12:38 PM
I joined the forum last month and realized that I should NOT be one who wants a free ride. This is a great effort for all of us. We should support it by all means we can.
Immediately signed for monthly contributions. Last weekend I heavily sent emails to media persons and contacted the senators too. Everyone and every dollar counts. I am spreading the name amongst all my friends and colleagues at work.
Go IV !
Immediately signed for monthly contributions. Last weekend I heavily sent emails to media persons and contacted the senators too. Everyone and every dollar counts. I am spreading the name amongst all my friends and colleagues at work.
Go IV !
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miguy
05-25 09:12 AM
75% of the people (close to 1000 people) where I work are consultants thro (US contracting companies, tcs, infosys, etc)....we are called supplemental workers here......if this bill passes, all of us would have to stop working.....I am sure there are other companies exactly in the same boat....whats gonna happen to this country? how will the businesses run?.....this is insane
more...
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reddymjm
01-23 09:26 AM
Ron has not made prediction specifically about India. Somebody asked Ron about filing I-485 with May 2004 PD without mentioning that (s)he was from India. So Ron probably assumed RoW. The OP later clarified that (s)he is from India and Ron hasn't replied to that. So let's wait for Ron to reply before getting excited about it.
If Ron meant EB3-I, he's probably expecting a July 2007 kind of bump, which allows a lot of people to file but results in very few approvals. This can be inferred from his statement that, "your priority date will become current, briefly, in a few months".
We EB3-I's are looking for any sign, just any sign of hope. But let's be cautious in disseminating such information further.
EB3 - ROW is already 01MAY05. He would not be saying 2004 for sure on EB3 ROW.
If Ron meant EB3-I, he's probably expecting a July 2007 kind of bump, which allows a lot of people to file but results in very few approvals. This can be inferred from his statement that, "your priority date will become current, briefly, in a few months".
We EB3-I's are looking for any sign, just any sign of hope. But let's be cautious in disseminating such information further.
EB3 - ROW is already 01MAY05. He would not be saying 2004 for sure on EB3 ROW.
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nrk
08-11 08:47 AM
There is no chance of moving forward in October, But I believe there is every possibility of the dates staying as it is and move forward in December Visa bulletin.
I might be wrong that is my wish.
Its 26May. I don't think they will move something in Oct right???
I might be wrong that is my wish.
Its 26May. I don't think they will move something in Oct right???
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kumarc123
08-18 03:47 PM
After calling US born children of illegal immigrants as "anchor babies", and family immigration as "chain migration", our friends at the anti-immigrant NumbersUSA have a new term for skilled immigrants, you guessed it "anchor immigrant".
They are again using their scare tactics to influence congress to drop its support for HR 5882.
Calling all EB3 guys, Eb2 IND guys with PD after Aug 06, and others with PD retrogressed, its in your sef-interest to call your members of congress to seek their support for this legislation, and to contribute to IV. There will be no relief for a while if this fails.
-=====
NUMBERSUSA,
ROy Beck
Aug 18, 2008
IT TAKES A VILLAGE -- Chain Migration Puts Nearly Everybody In Line To Overwhelm U.S. Communities
By Roy Beck, Monday, August 18, 2008, 12:50 AM
As soon as we take a single skilled immigrant from a developing nation, around 17 different families may be put in line to follow because of our reckless Chain Migration policies.
Our immigration policies literally "take a village" every time a new Anchor Immigrant is admitted to this country.
Fortunately, our immigration policies do have a few boundaries and delays that keep the whole village from entering our U.S. communities immediately. But every one of the members of those 17 families begins to consider future immigration to the U.S. as an entitlement. And because of that, millions don't wait for their turn, instead settling in the U.S. illegally to wait for the greencard that they believe is rightfully theirs.
THE 'ANCHOR IMMIGRANT'
Our U.S. population is exploding -- consigning more and more of us to heavily congested, heavily regulated lives -- because of high immigration numbers, which have snowballed because Congress insists on continuing Chain Migration.
Because of Chain Migration, every immigrant we allow into the country because he/she brings a special skill, education or experience becomes an Anchor Immigrant.
That is, if officials determine that an employer can't find an American to fill a job and allow the importation of a foreign worker, that worker becomes an anchor in the U.S. for vast numbers of other people from his/her home country.
One problem for the United States is that only the Anchor Immigrant is supposed to be picked on the basis of serving the national interest.
All the other immigrants attached to that Anchor through Chain Migration get to come without any regard whatsoever to their education, skill or humanitarian need.
ONE ANCHOR CONNECTS TO 17 FAMILIES
My "17-Family Chain-Migration Village" example is not close to the worst possible scenario but it is a nightmare that is not uncommon.
Here's the scenario:
Consider a typical Anchor Immigrant who comes from a developing nation and has three adult siblings. All of them come from one family. As soon as the Anchor Immigrant is accepted, all those siblings know that the Anchor Immigrant can put them in line for immigration once he/she becomes a U.S. citizen. Mentally, that one whole family is now in line to come to America.
But there are many more families who mentally get in line, too. The Anchor's spouse, plus each of those three siblings' spouses will be eligible. That makes five families now in line (the original plus the families of the four spouses).
In every one of those families are their own siblings, minor children, parents, etc. This is getting to be quite a crowd of people who suddenly see their future as possibly being in the U.S. That makes five families involved now (the original and the four spouses' families).
Now, consider the siblings of those four spouses. That would be 3 siblings multiplied by the 4 spouses, equalling 12 more adults, all of whom potentially have their own spouses! Potentially, each of those 12 spouses of the siblings of the spouses of the Anchor's siblings is from a different family.
Now, you have those 12 families, plus the Anchor's family, plus the families of the four spouses of the three siblings of the Anchor. That potentially adds up to 17 families that immediately can know that they are in a chain that eventually can have a chance to immigrate to America. And all of that happens the minute our government decides to give a permanent work permit to a single foreign worker.
An Anchor Immigrant immediately creates chains of expectation into possibly 17 different families.
You can imagine how a village or urban neighborhood can quickly have most of its residents seeing that their future is in the United States. Not only does this build huge pressures for more migration and more population growth in the U.S. but it saps whole villages and neighborhoods of the will for self-improvement.
Why will people pour themselves into bettering their own communities when they believe their future lies living in America? And, of course, the chain migration does not end with those 17 families. Our rules are set up so that every Chain Immigrant also becomes an Anchor Immigrant, making it possible for every relative to get in line to come to the U.S.
The only solution is to end the Chain Migration categories entirely. (See our pages on the legislative solutions.) That means limiting each Anchor Immigrant to bringing a spouse and minor children. No adult children, siblings or parents.
The Anchor Immigrant can easily visit his/her relatives annually (or more often) and can be in constant communication by phone, internet and postal mail. Chain categories must be ended if we are to avoid the nightmare of 439 million U.S. population in 2050 as projected by the Census Bureau.
CONGRESS THREATENING TO ADD 550,000 MORE 'ANCHOR IMMIGRANTS' NEXT YEAR
Sen. Menendez of New Jersey is blocking the re-authorization of E-Verify (to keep illegal aliens out of jobs) until Congress agrees to add 550,000 additional Anchor Immigrants next year.
At the moment, the leadership of both Senate and House are seriously considering trying to pass the 550,000 increase in Anchor Immigrants.
Powerful media like the Los Angeles Times and New York Times are lobbying hard for more Anchor Immigrants.
Unless the American people themselves become fully aware of the dangers of Chain Migration and the concept of the "17-Family Chain-Migration Village," the Big Business and Big Media lobbyists are likely to multiply the chain migration nightmare many times again.
Make sure you have gone to your NumbersUSA Action Buffet and sent all your free faxes to push your Members of Congress to stop Sen. Menendez and to eliminate Chain Migration.
Well they call us Anchor immigrants, because most of us have an anchor, where as they dont have one, beacuse they are still lost in their world of abyss.
I will take this as a complement.
They are again using their scare tactics to influence congress to drop its support for HR 5882.
Calling all EB3 guys, Eb2 IND guys with PD after Aug 06, and others with PD retrogressed, its in your sef-interest to call your members of congress to seek their support for this legislation, and to contribute to IV. There will be no relief for a while if this fails.
-=====
NUMBERSUSA,
ROy Beck
Aug 18, 2008
IT TAKES A VILLAGE -- Chain Migration Puts Nearly Everybody In Line To Overwhelm U.S. Communities
By Roy Beck, Monday, August 18, 2008, 12:50 AM
As soon as we take a single skilled immigrant from a developing nation, around 17 different families may be put in line to follow because of our reckless Chain Migration policies.
Our immigration policies literally "take a village" every time a new Anchor Immigrant is admitted to this country.
Fortunately, our immigration policies do have a few boundaries and delays that keep the whole village from entering our U.S. communities immediately. But every one of the members of those 17 families begins to consider future immigration to the U.S. as an entitlement. And because of that, millions don't wait for their turn, instead settling in the U.S. illegally to wait for the greencard that they believe is rightfully theirs.
THE 'ANCHOR IMMIGRANT'
Our U.S. population is exploding -- consigning more and more of us to heavily congested, heavily regulated lives -- because of high immigration numbers, which have snowballed because Congress insists on continuing Chain Migration.
Because of Chain Migration, every immigrant we allow into the country because he/she brings a special skill, education or experience becomes an Anchor Immigrant.
That is, if officials determine that an employer can't find an American to fill a job and allow the importation of a foreign worker, that worker becomes an anchor in the U.S. for vast numbers of other people from his/her home country.
One problem for the United States is that only the Anchor Immigrant is supposed to be picked on the basis of serving the national interest.
All the other immigrants attached to that Anchor through Chain Migration get to come without any regard whatsoever to their education, skill or humanitarian need.
ONE ANCHOR CONNECTS TO 17 FAMILIES
My "17-Family Chain-Migration Village" example is not close to the worst possible scenario but it is a nightmare that is not uncommon.
Here's the scenario:
Consider a typical Anchor Immigrant who comes from a developing nation and has three adult siblings. All of them come from one family. As soon as the Anchor Immigrant is accepted, all those siblings know that the Anchor Immigrant can put them in line for immigration once he/she becomes a U.S. citizen. Mentally, that one whole family is now in line to come to America.
But there are many more families who mentally get in line, too. The Anchor's spouse, plus each of those three siblings' spouses will be eligible. That makes five families now in line (the original plus the families of the four spouses).
In every one of those families are their own siblings, minor children, parents, etc. This is getting to be quite a crowd of people who suddenly see their future as possibly being in the U.S. That makes five families involved now (the original and the four spouses' families).
Now, consider the siblings of those four spouses. That would be 3 siblings multiplied by the 4 spouses, equalling 12 more adults, all of whom potentially have their own spouses! Potentially, each of those 12 spouses of the siblings of the spouses of the Anchor's siblings is from a different family.
Now, you have those 12 families, plus the Anchor's family, plus the families of the four spouses of the three siblings of the Anchor. That potentially adds up to 17 families that immediately can know that they are in a chain that eventually can have a chance to immigrate to America. And all of that happens the minute our government decides to give a permanent work permit to a single foreign worker.
An Anchor Immigrant immediately creates chains of expectation into possibly 17 different families.
You can imagine how a village or urban neighborhood can quickly have most of its residents seeing that their future is in the United States. Not only does this build huge pressures for more migration and more population growth in the U.S. but it saps whole villages and neighborhoods of the will for self-improvement.
Why will people pour themselves into bettering their own communities when they believe their future lies living in America? And, of course, the chain migration does not end with those 17 families. Our rules are set up so that every Chain Immigrant also becomes an Anchor Immigrant, making it possible for every relative to get in line to come to the U.S.
The only solution is to end the Chain Migration categories entirely. (See our pages on the legislative solutions.) That means limiting each Anchor Immigrant to bringing a spouse and minor children. No adult children, siblings or parents.
The Anchor Immigrant can easily visit his/her relatives annually (or more often) and can be in constant communication by phone, internet and postal mail. Chain categories must be ended if we are to avoid the nightmare of 439 million U.S. population in 2050 as projected by the Census Bureau.
CONGRESS THREATENING TO ADD 550,000 MORE 'ANCHOR IMMIGRANTS' NEXT YEAR
Sen. Menendez of New Jersey is blocking the re-authorization of E-Verify (to keep illegal aliens out of jobs) until Congress agrees to add 550,000 additional Anchor Immigrants next year.
At the moment, the leadership of both Senate and House are seriously considering trying to pass the 550,000 increase in Anchor Immigrants.
Powerful media like the Los Angeles Times and New York Times are lobbying hard for more Anchor Immigrants.
Unless the American people themselves become fully aware of the dangers of Chain Migration and the concept of the "17-Family Chain-Migration Village," the Big Business and Big Media lobbyists are likely to multiply the chain migration nightmare many times again.
Make sure you have gone to your NumbersUSA Action Buffet and sent all your free faxes to push your Members of Congress to stop Sen. Menendez and to eliminate Chain Migration.
Well they call us Anchor immigrants, because most of us have an anchor, where as they dont have one, beacuse they are still lost in their world of abyss.
I will take this as a complement.
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Junky
09-22 03:13 PM
I am using my milky rollover mintues :D
Please evey one should call.
Call Baby Call!!!
Poll Added Folks....Lets burn those line..even if you have to go use those Milky Rollover minutes ( They are perfectly fine to user here...you don't have to throw them away )
Please evey one should call.
Call Baby Call!!!
Poll Added Folks....Lets burn those line..even if you have to go use those Milky Rollover minutes ( They are perfectly fine to user here...you don't have to throw them away )
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vaishalikumar
08-27 03:55 PM
I am also in PA and my DL(driving licence) will expire in last of September month and my H1b extension is still pending at California Center . Can i get DL renewed from PENNDOT on the basis of Receipt Notice of H1b Extension and a letter from employer ?
I'm in the same boat. PA DoT wants to see visa stamp on the passport.. applied for 1st 3 year extn at VSC on 7/10, will up it to PP this week... anyone in PA got their DL renewed using RN... please specify how and where??
I'm in the same boat. PA DoT wants to see visa stamp on the passport.. applied for 1st 3 year extn at VSC on 7/10, will up it to PP this week... anyone in PA got their DL renewed using RN... please specify how and where??
Pagal
01-15 04:22 PM
Very interesting arguments!
My PD is Feb 2005 and RD is Oct 2007 (post Jul 07 fiasco). But my application still moved and I had to appear for an interview with IO at local office in Dec 08 (of course, now again it is in pending status).
So, IMHO USCIS may be using a combo of PD/RD to process the cases...
My PD is Feb 2005 and RD is Oct 2007 (post Jul 07 fiasco). But my application still moved and I had to appear for an interview with IO at local office in Dec 08 (of course, now again it is in pending status).
So, IMHO USCIS may be using a combo of PD/RD to process the cases...
Springflower
10-24 10:46 AM
Congratulations shimul99.
We could be one of those lucky guys too.
We could be one of those lucky guys too.
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